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VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/21/25 11:32 p.m.

However, Trump said in a Truth Social post last month that he thinks Ukraine, with the European Union's support, "is in a position to fight and WIN all of Ukraine back in its original form."

I wonder if it's maybe not time for Eastern Nato and the EU to toughen up and to just go in and force Putin out of Ukraine, I wonder who's side the US would back.

It's funny to see Orban kiss up to Putin year after year, what's his story? Also, what's going on in Moldova? Hard to believe there isn't political mayhem going on.

 

Xceler8x
Xceler8x GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/22/25 8:45 a.m.

Seems trump and Zelensky got into a yelling match in the White House, aka a temper tantrum, over using appeasement to try to end the war. Appeasement to Pooty-poot not the Good Guys - The Ukrainians who're defending themselves from a foreign invasion. No surprise there. That worked so well in WW2, why not try it now?

Trump calls for Ukraine to be carved up with Russia after tense meeting with Zelenskyy

The idea was so well received (Sarcasm, folks.) that Pooty and trump's meeting is now off. 
Plans for Trump-Putin talks in Budapest shelved

I wonder if it was because Poland stated that if Pooty flew through their airspace, they'd arrest him for trafficking Ukrainian children early in the war? Putin had hundreds of Ukrainian children kidnapped and trafficked into Russia for those not in the know. I, for one, am glad (Sarcasm, again) that we're negotiating with someone who trafficks children.  
Poland warns Russia's Putin against crossing its airspace for Trump summit

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
10/22/25 11:24 a.m.

Impatience is not a virtue when it comes to resolving a conflict in which one is not a primary party. As noted many times here before, the primary parties must be looking to terminate hostilities before any diplomatic solution is even possible (the suggestion that Europe try to throw the Russians out of Ukraine by force is fanciful at best and delusional at worst - the Europeans would be lucky if they could keep the Russians out of their own countries, let alone conduct offensive operations).

It's worth restating some basic truths about this conflict, as perspectives seem to be diverging from both them and reality.

- Ukraine is not an ally. It has no formal military ties to the US, NATO, or the EU. It is a state that was attacked by another that is viewed as generally hostile to Western interests, thus it follows that it is in Western interests to assist it in its defense. This does not mean that it is necessarily desirable that Ukraine win decisively; an argument can be made that the best outcome for Russia's rivals is to maintain the stalemate in Ukraine for as long as possible without risking escalation, as this will weaken Russia more effectively than any other outcome.

For those that like to employ the flawed WWII analogy, consider if the Czechs had fought rather than acquiescing in 1938, occupying the Germans for several years, forcing them to consume resources and manpower. In the meantime, the rest of Western Europe would likely have raised the alarm and begun rearming, strengthening their defenses, potentially to the extent that Germany would have had to delay or modify their plans, perhaps confining themselves to attacking Russia (the key stated objective of Lebensraum, and not an ally of any Western country at the time). This hypothetical bears much closer resemblance to the current situation than does the historical fact of 1938.

- Russia has no particular interest in halting the conflict in sub-optimal circumstances. Yes, it is costing it a lot, but it is also providing Putin with excellent clear affirmation of his basic domestic narrative, that Russia is the target of Western aggression, and that his regime is the only thing preventing humiliation similar to what was seen in the 1990s or worse. Further, any repression, privation, or other unpleasantness that the Russia people might suffer becomes the fault of the West, not Putin. Only a significant victory improves Putin's domestic position; anything short of that weakens his standing and constrains his domestic policy options. It is worth noting that Putin's regime, like all authoritarian ones, is brittle, but continuing the war in Ukraine is paradoxically helping him to manage this rather than hurting him. His targeted removals of potential sources of domestic rivalry have been intended to eliminate risks of internal opposition (external opposition is not a serious concern).

- Ukraine is dependent on external support, and this limits its options. Much of the friction between Zelensky and Western leaders has come from his unwillingness to acknowledge this fact. This is not an unusual point of contention (consider both sides in the Vietnam or Korean Wars and their respective relationships with their patrons), but that doesn't make it any less of a factor. Because of this, if Ukraine's strategy does not align with Western interests, the former will struggle to achieve its objectives. It may be fighting to defend itself, but the nature of the relationship means that Ukraine must take external factors into account; failing to do so will weaken its ability to succeed. This is a significant part of the push to develop its domestic arms industry (something it had significant experience with during the Soviet era), which is probably the most critical factor in maintaining some form of independence in the long run, regardless of external support.

- Meanwhile, the impact of the conflict on Western posture has been arguably nothing but beneficial, especially for the US. While the Europeans will struggle to figure out how to pay for their increased defensive capabilities, US industry will likely reap significant benefits, especially in the short term. If the costs are too high, however, Europe may see the rise of governments less willing to support Ukraine, and thus less willing to continue spending on their own defense (a flawed bit of logic, but one that often appeals to domestic voters). Another beneficiary is China, which has cut its oil import costs by buying discounted Russian oil, and has been able to focus on its priorities with limited US interference; the Chinese certainly have no interest in seeing the conflict in Ukraine ended.

None of this may be pleasant to acknowledge, but that doesn't make it any less factual. All parties may say they want peace, but what that peace looks like is very different in every case. Only when the range of individually acceptable conditions for peace begin to converge around certain common interests will the possibility of a settlement emerge. At the moment, it doesn't look like either side is likely to win or lose outright, and neither is willing to give the other what it wants, so the only remaining possibility is to keep fighting.

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/22/25 1:24 p.m.

To add a bit to o2's points and the idea of NATO just pushing Russia out:  If we are talking about actual troops, ignoring many practical issues, the likelihood European countries are willing to commit lives to the conflict is certainly very low. Not entirely analogous, but if you have children, would you support them to be sent over to Ukraine to fight and potentially die or be wounded?  Not likely, and Europe is in a similar state of mind.

NATO could certainly send arms, I am pretty sure not as NATO, but as individual countries, but of course they are already doing that.  Sending more arms is certainly and option, and seems to be happening (e.g. Sweeden has just agreed to sell them 120+ Gripen fighters).  As 02 noted previously, the reaction by the Russians to any actual escalation (e.g. sending significantly more weapons) will likely be in the form of sabotage type operations in Europe, which they have done some of, and which they seem to be very much hinting at with those drone incidents.  I think 02's statement was actually as a potential response to Russia starting to loose some grip on the war (e.g. not being able to advance anymore), which is certainly very possible also.

To that point.  Remember those troops the Ukrainians surrounded.  Apparently the most northern group has been captured.  Approximately 50 prisoners they say (more to trade).  It's also an interesting note in the video posted above (Austrian) showed a current map that could be seen in a Russian briefing (which was no more than a few weeks old) that showed Russian captured territory, and clearly showed the area Ukraine has surrounded and just captured, as Russian held.  I think we all assume it, but it's clear proof that the Russians are misrepresenting their situation, even to themselves. From a practical perspective, that does create some real potential issues (e.g. not properly distributing forces) 

Grippen: Similar in capabilities to an F16 (multi-role etc).  Uses an almost full delta wing with large canards, similar to the Israeli modification of the Mirage III to create the Kfir (which, owned by a government contractor, I spot occasionally flying over my house!).

Saab Gripen

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/22/25 1:42 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

Was listening to the Remnant podcast (The current episode: Soldiers, Not Warriors is particularly good) and they made the good point that Ukraine is making long-term trade relationships with reliable partners. And our on-again, off-again attitude isn't going to help us carve those out.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/22/25 2:24 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

OK, Remnant added, thanks.  I really like listening to podcasts when doing car work.  I do generally appreciate most anything associated with The Dispatch.  I am sometimes amazed (sadly really) at the actual rational assessment of some things!

And yes, being a bit unpredictable can have advantages is some situation, but can certainly creates issues with commitments to stable relationships (e.g. many nations are a bit worried to overly commit to US weapons systems if the US can have influence on their use.).  To be fair, the flip-floppy general tendency between US admins has always been a bit of a thing, but it might be much worse going forward (!?)

Xceler8x
Xceler8x GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/23/25 7:22 a.m.

Here's another interesting wrinkle concerning Russia's ability to continue the fight against the underdog, illegally invaded, oppressed Ukraine.

The Russian coal, and potentially fossil fuel industry overall, is collapsing.

This article, from the left-wing rag - Forbes (There's that sarcasm again.) :

Russia’s coal collapse marks the breaking point of the fossil era. With thermal-coal prices down nearly 80 percent from their 2022 peak and over half of Russia’s producers now losing money, Moscow’s lifeline industry is imploding — even as renewables, batteries, and storage become the fastest-growing assets in the world economy.

According to the Financial Times, the sector lost Rbs 225 billion (≈ US$2.8 billion) in the first seven months of 2025 — more than double 2024’s total losses — as exports vanished and subsidies fail. Twenty-three coal companies — about 13 percent of the national total — have already shut down, and another 53 are at risk of closing. Once Russia’s fourth-largest export, coal has become its worst-performing industry in more than 30 years.

The article goes on to say how the market has flipped from scarcity to abundance, all because of the lower cost and effort to build of renewables like wind, solar, etc. This will pinch Russia's economy as one of its pillars is the sale of energy to various markets. It's hard to buy weapons and ammo if you don't have ready cash. You can borrow, but for how long?

A bit more on that:
 

Russia’s implosion is mirrored — though for different reasons — in the United States, where the fossil sector is facing structural decline not from sanctions, but from market irrelevance.

In October 2025, a federal coal lease auction in Montana attracted just one bid: $186,000 for 167 million tons of coal — roughly $0.001 per ton, a 99.9 percent collapse in value versus a similar 2012 sale at $1.10 per ton. The Department of the Interior then postponed additional auctions in Wyoming and Utah, citing “market conditions.” Analysts read the signal plainly: the market has priced coal out of future portfolios.

Interesting times these, in energy as well as Democracy. 

Then, we can talk about how trump's admin imposed sanctions under pressure from the US Senate.

Admittedly, the sanctions aren't as tough as what Republicans in the Senate wanted, but they are finally in place. The target of those sanctions is, you guessed it - no sarcasm this time, the energy sector. Two of the largest oil and gas companies in Russia now have higher barriers to trade and black market energy sales thanks to these sanctions. Russia has been crafty about getting around these sanctions. I mean, criminals like Pooty-poot are going to criminal. This set of sanctions does create a blacklist of entities that are known undeclared Russian marketers of sanctioned products. 

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/23/25 7:38 a.m.

According to the Financial Times, the sector lost Rbs 225 billion (≈ US$2.8 billion) in the first seven months of 2025 — more than double 2024’s total losses — as exports vanished and subsidies fail. Twenty-three coal companies — about 13 percent of the national total — have already shut down, and another 53 are at risk of closing. Once Russia’s fourth-largest export, coal has become its worst-performing industry in more than 30 years.

Abstract thought here.  Just think of the number of people that are going to be available for military service.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/23/25 9:30 a.m.

I've never taken the time to sis this out, but find it interesting that Russia is known for its coal and oil but not much else in the area of resource development. Given Russia's vast size, are they simply not trying that hard to find other valuable deposits like Lithium, or other precious and strategic metals and minerals, or is Northern Asia just poor in this department?

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
10/23/25 10:04 a.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Russia's natural resources

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/23/25 12:11 p.m.

In reply to Xceler8x :

You may have missed the post about the state of the Russian economy.  The energy sector is certainly in trouble (current sanction, oil price purchase limits, can't fix western equipment, can't do more exploration or drilling, reserves running low...) but the other side is not good either.  The war is obviously expensive, but the recruiting and killing of 100 of thousands of their working age males is not only creating a labor shortage, that is creating labor cost spikes (demand), it also has very high payments to not only soldier signing bonuses, but payments to widows / families (clearly there are a lot of those!)

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/23/25 12:24 p.m.

As Xceler8x noted, it looks like the US admin is FINALLY concluded the Russians have no real interest (or motivation) to constructively negotiate.  As a result, new sanctions of two major Russian oil producers have been implemented.  I am not sure exactly what they are, but they seem pretty harsh.

US hits top Russian oil companies Rosneft and Lukoil with sanctions

WASHINGTON, Oct 22 (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Wednesday imposed Ukraine-related sanctions on Russia for the first time in his second term, targeting oil companies Lukoil and Rosneft as his frustration grows with Russian President Vladimir Putin over the war.

The U.S. Treasury Department said it was prepared to take further action as it called on Moscow to agree immediately to a ceasefire in Russia's war in Ukraine, which began in February 2022....

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-announces-sanctions-russian-oil-companies-rosneft-lukoil-2025-10-22/

 

I say it must be harsh, because it's clearly having an effect:

Exclusive: China state oil majors suspend Russian oil buys due to sanctions, sources say

SINGAPORE, Oct 23 (Reuters) - Chinese state oil majors have suspended purchases of seaborne Russian oil after the United States imposed sanctions on Rosneft and Lukoil, Moscow's two biggest oil companies, multiple trade sources said on Thursday.

The move comes as refiners in India, the largest buyer of seaborne Russian oil, are set to sharply cut their crude imports from Moscow, to comply with the U.S. sanctions imposed over the Kremlin's invasion of Ukraine.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-state-oil-majors-suspend-russian-oil-buys-due-sanctions-sources-say-2025-10-23/

 

As noted above, India is affected also:

India is likely to significantly reduce imports of crude oil from its largest supplier — Russia — due to sanctions from the US and Europe, reported The Economic Times citing sources in the refining industry.

Reliance Industries Ltd, the largest Indian buyer of Russian oil, plans to sharply reduce or completely stop importing crude oil from Moscow, two sources familiar with the situation told the newspaper.

Indian state-owned refineries are reviewing documents related to trade in Russian oil to ensure there are no direct supplies from Rosneft and Lukoil after both Russian companies were sanctioned by the US, a source familiar with the situation told The Economic Times.

 Europe is piling on:

EU countries have officially adopted the 19th package of sanctions against Russia, which includes a ban on the import of Russian liquefied natural gas (LNG).

27 member states approved this package on Wednesday evening after Slovakia lifted its veto.

The LNG ban will take effect in two stages: short-term contracts will end in six months, and long-term contracts — from January 1, 2027.

 

The Russian, as predictable, are not happy and of course (yawn) are warning of all out war... hellfire... etc etc. (you know how when you hear the same song played over and over on the radio... )

“The U.S. is our enemy, and their talkative ‘peacemaker’  has now fully embarked on the path of war with Russia,” Medvedev said.

One has to wonder what Russias actual reaction to this will be.  This almost certainly will have a VERY noticeable effect on Russia.  You do have the danger of a cornered animal kind of thing.  I suspect, as indicated previously, you will see a blaming of the west for attacking Russia and a step up of sabotage attacks. 

Would this be a desperate enough situation for Russia to say, invade the Baltic States?  I cannot see how that would in any way improve their current situation.  It would almost certainly make it far worse(?).

CrustyRedXpress
CrustyRedXpress GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/23/25 1:09 p.m.
02Pilot said:

[snip] the Europeans would be lucky if they could keep the Russians out of their own countries, let alone conduct offensive operations [snip]

I think you may be overestimating Russia's military prowess in the year of our lord 2025. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding?

Agree that putting troops on the ground is a bad idea though.

===============================================

U.S. imposes sanctions on Russian oil companies after strikes on Ukraine kill 7-10/22, WaPo

U.S. Lifts Key Restriction on Ukraine’s Use of European Long-Range Missiles-10/22, WSJ.com

===============================================

A charitable reading of the US administration's actions would be that they are applying as much pressure as possible(?) to one side, and then the other, in hopes that one side cracks and comes to the bargaining table. 

 

02Pilot
02Pilot PowerDork
10/23/25 1:50 p.m.
CrustyRedXpress said:
02Pilot said:

[snip] the Europeans would be lucky if they could keep the Russians out of their own countries, let alone conduct offensive operations [snip]

I think you may be overestimating Russia's military prowess in the year of our lord 2025. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding?

I don't think I am. For everything that Russia has expended in Ukraine, they could still make a mess of any number of European countries utilizing drone attacks for which they are woefully unprepared. It wouldn't look like the proverbial surge through the Fulda Gap that we spent so much time preparing for, but if they committed to it (and they would, of necessity), I wouldn't be surprised to see serious operational impacts on many European militaries within 48 hours. Combined with hybrid warfare operations against infrastructure and communications, I expect you'd see a large number of European units' equipment compromised before it even deployed. This assumes a zero-warning scenario, but even with some lead time, there's not a lot of drone defense in place in the EU (or the US, for that matter, but geography matters here).

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/23/25 2:31 p.m.

As 02 noted, Russia has been playing, hinting at and seem to be (at least making it look like) they are ready to throw a switch to cause havoc.  Now, doing that without outright committing an act of war (e.g. an Iskander strike on the Polish supply hub) might get a bit grey / tricky but the Russian are good at and have a good amount of practice doing similar things.

As far as throwing troops across a boarder.  The Russians certainly operate like they lack any fear and that serves them well in the current battles, but... activating NATO airpower in a cross boarder incursion would open up a world of hurt they have not come close to seeing with Ukraine.  NATO may have not stomach to throw bodies at the Russians, but all the FPV and wire guided drones in the world will not help them when their air defenses are eliminated (already stretched thin now, and we know a LOT more about them then we did a few years ago) and NATO takes virtual air supremacy over Ukraine and start lobbing B52's full of munitions on their troops, HQ's etc.

I suspect Russia is well aware of not poking that bear, so expect a lot of biting around the edges.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/23/25 2:33 p.m.

And, some news on "former" Ukrainian children:

-----

Kremlin-appointed Russian Commissioner for Children’s Rights Maria Lvova-Belova continues to personally implicate herself in the deportation and re-education of a Ukrainian teenager, highlighting the Kremlin’s intimate involvement in Russia’s broader campaign to deport Ukrainian children and erase their Ukrainian identities. Lvova-Belova gave an interview to the Empatia Manuchi social media show on October 6, during which she spoke about her experience adopting a teenage boy from occupied Mariupol.[1] Lvova-Belova claimed that Russia is not deporting and re-educating Ukrainian children, but then immediately stated that she “stole” a child from Mariupol and spoke about how she and her family re-educated the adopted teenager to make him pro-Russian. Lvova-Belova claimed that the teenager introduced a “complicated atmosphere” to her family upon his adoption because he maintained pro-Ukrainian ideals and an adversarial stance towards Russia, saying that he did not want to live in Russia because he “loved Ukraine.” Lvova-Belova claimed that she told him to change his attitude because he lives in Russia now, and that as a result “he gradually began to change his attitude” and now does not want to go to Ukraine anymore.

Lvova-Belova has previously advertised her adoption of the 15-year-old boy from Mariupol since 2022, likely in an effort to normalize the adoption of Ukrainian children for other Russian families.[2] Lvova-Belova has also spoken openly about her efforts to “re-educate” her adopted son in order to instill in him pro-Russian values, claiming during a forum in August 2022 that when she first adopted the teenager he would proudly talk about his previous pro-Ukrainian demonstrations and threaten Russian children.[3] ISW has reported at length on Lvova-Belova’s personal connection to Russian efforts to deport and forcibly adopt Ukrainian children to Russian families, and continues to assess these acts may constitute a violation of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which considers the forcible transfer of children of one group to another group as a constituent act of genocide.[4] Russia has likely deported upwards of 35,000 Ukrainian children, according to estimates by the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab.[5]

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/23/25 3:07 p.m.

 

Cripes...  Plastmass explosion in Russia.  This was an artillery shell and explosives factory.  It was 1800km from Ukraine.

 

DarkMonohue
DarkMonohue GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/23/25 3:19 p.m.

Link to Reuters piece on the Plastmass explosion. Note that despite the URL claiming four killed, the article revises that to twelve, quoting a russian media outlet:

https://www.reuters.com/world/explosion-plant-urals-city-kills-four-regional-governor-says-2025-10-22/

The state also denies any drone activity, for whatever that claim is worth.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/23/25 5:02 p.m.
aircooled said:

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

OK, Remnant added, thanks.  I really like listening to podcasts when doing car work.  I do generally appreciate most anything associated with The Dispatch.  I am sometimes amazed (sadly really) at the actual rational assessment of some things!

And yes, being a bit unpredictable can have advantages is some situation, but can certainly creates issues with commitments to stable relationships (e.g. many nations are a bit worried to overly commit to US weapons systems if the US can have influence on their use.).  To be fair, the flip-floppy general tendency between US admins has always been a bit of a thing, but it might be much worse going forward (!?)

Canada is talking to South Korea, Germany and Norway for new submarines. We are talking to Sweden for new jets on top of the F-35 obligation that we already have and the billion spent to date on that project. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/24/25 1:04 p.m.

Some info on the decision for the new sanctions

The strike by a Russian UAV on a kindergarten in Kharkiv forced Trump to sharply impose sanctions against the Kremlin, — CNN

According to the publication's sources, even in Washington many were surprised by the speed with which the president made the decision. For several months, Trump assured his advisers that "one day he would act more decisively" regarding Moscow and Putin.

And now the president hinted: his instincts suggest that it is time to move in a different direction.

A few hours before the announcement of the sanctions, a Russian drone attacked a kindergarten in Kharkiv. Fortunately, the children survived.

Russian just recently shelled residential areas of Kherson with artillery and rockets.  This seems like a pretty obvious deliberate attack.

More issues in Russia:

Ukraine’s drone strike shut down the main crude processing unit at Russia’s fourth-largest oil refinery in Ryazan, Reuters reports. Nearby units, including a reformer, gasoil hydrotreater, and catalytic cracker, were also halted. Another hit to Russia’s energy infrastructure.

P3PPY
P3PPY GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/24/25 2:07 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

One can only hope that this “adoption” of captives will one day turn out for Russians like Arminius in the Teutoburg forest. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
10/24/25 4:33 p.m.

Russia seems to be adopting tactics that are normally reserved for what are commonly call terrorists.  A "double tap" BTW is an attack (traditionally a bomb) that is followed up by a second attack that is timed to kill the responders to the attack (e.g. ambulances, fire fighters).  It's a pretty much a straight up terror attack.

Russian forces continue to target and kill civilians, first responders, and journalists. The Donetsk Oblast Prosecutor’s Office reported on October 23 that Russian forces executed at least four civilians sheltering in private homes in Zvanivka, Bakhmutsky Raion on October 20, 2025.[30] Russian soldiers have committed extreme atrocities against civilians and soldiers in occupied Ukraine, and ISW continues to assess that Russian battlefield commanders enable and even order atrocities including summary executions.[31] The Ukrainian State Emergency Service reported on October 23 that Russian forces conducted a double-tap strike against first responders in Zelenyi Hai, Kharkiv Oblast, killing one first responder and injuring five others.[32] Russian forces have conducted double-tap strikes targeting first responders in Ukraine to spread fear among Ukrainian civilians and maximize the degree of casualties and damage from Russian strike series in Ukraine. [33]

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/24/25 5:47 p.m.
Noddaz said:

 

Cripes...  Plastmass explosion in Russia.  This was an artillery shell and explosives factory.  It was 1800km from Ukraine.

 

I wonder if that was hit with one of Ukraine's new Flamingo Missiles?

On Aug. 17, Associated Press photographer Efrem Lukatsky shared a photo of the Ukrainian Flamingo missile, with a range exceeding 3,000 kilometers (1864 miles). The journalist said the missiles have entered serial production.

Defence Express reported that the Flamingo's warhead is twice as powerful as the American Tomahawk's, with a speed up to 950 kilometers per hour (590mph).

MSN.com: Ukraine's Flamingo missile chief designer confirms combat use

 

stroker
stroker PowerDork
10/24/25 10:00 p.m.

I hate to say this, but I'm actually surprised the Russians haven't used a missile with powdered radioactive material in the warhead, yet...

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/24/25 10:23 p.m.

In reply to stroker :

Oh they wouldn't do that in Ukraine because they don't want to contaminate all the sweet land they want for themselves. Not on purpose anyway, maybe through negligence judging by how they act around Chernobyl and Zaporizhzhia. A dirty bomb attack in a country that's supporting Ukraine though, yeah I could see them trying that...

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