The unicorn doesn't exist, "middle" weight ADV bikes suck

So I've been somewhat curious about the "middle" weight bikes as I'd like something that I can take off road like my 701, but will be better on the slab.  I've had a KTM 990 Adv in the past and when it ran (which was a challenge for it) it was awesome.  The KTM 1190 R that replaced it was far more reliable, and an awesome street bike, but far too heavy for me to want to take off road.  I've had a string of 640/690/701's since then.

I've ridden a T7, which didn't do anything for me, suspension would need work, motor was smooth but not inspiring and then helping my friend pick his up off road killed it for me.  It was so top heavy it was ridiculous.  I've ridden a KTM 890R and I liked the motor, but the ergonomics were weird, the foot pegs stick out right where you want to put your foot down when you stop.  The bike also didn't really want to move off center very easily, then there's the whole cam shaft issue...

Yesterday I rode an Aprilia Tuareg, on paper it seems good, less weight than the 890 and T7, decent power and suspension, tubeless wheels, cruise control, etc, etc.  It didn't help that the demo I took out was thoroughly beat on, if they want to sell bikes they shouldn't be using it.  Even with that though I could feel that it wasn't as flickable as my 701, and the way the different modes are programmed for power are really strange.  If you have it give you all the power, then it feels strong and I can believe the 80hp, but the throttle mapping isn't smooth at all.  Coming on/off the throttle was really jerky and there's no way I'd want to ride the bike like that either on or off road.  On any of the other settings, it didn't feel like it made any power at all, much slower than my 701.  

I've seen some spy shots of a KTM 690 Adventure, guess I'll wait to see if that finally comes to market.  Out of all the middle weights I've ridden the 890 was the one that was the closest to my 690/701's as far as eagerness of the motor and suspension.  I just didn't like the way it felt trying to move it off center and then the reliability issues are huge.  If I can find something like a 790 Rally for cheap enough it might be worth it, as long as the cams were inspected before I bought it...

I've not had a chance to try them out, but would any of the BMW parallel twins qualify? Like the F800/F900? Plus I guess the new R12 G/S might qualify, but only by virtue of even middle-weight bikes being rather oversized these days.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

The BMW's are way too heavy and soft, R12GS is over 600lbs.  The others are around 475lbs, my 701 is around 350lbs...

Guzzi has the V85TT which seems promising but they've attached the swing arm to the transmission case which is about as stupid as you can get when building a motorcycle that's supposed to be "off-road capable".

I'll keep my Stelvio with it's proper frame.

In reply to docwyte :

Claimed weigh for the R12 G/S is around 500, but that's obviously is still pretty heavy for a bike that's supposed to be pretty stripped down.

It's pretty hard to imagine bashing anything much harder than a fire road on an over-400 lb bike, much less over-500. We've discussed before how odd it is that KTM hasn't cashed in on their remarkable LC4 engine with a proper adventure bike. It'd gain some lbs over the enduro model, but would still be in a class of one in many ways.

The Tenere seems to be the middleweight du jour. I'm appreciative that it doesn't  go nuts on the electronics, and it should be reliable.

A bike that doesn't really meet your criteria, but is appealing nonetheless is the Moto Guzzi V85tt. It's a very good looking bike at a reasonable price in a brand known for quality and reliability. Surprising that they are such a rarity, given that I live in an area that embraces unusual rides. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

That's a good looking bike but not really what I'm after.  I've seen spy shots of a 690 Adventure, hopefully KTM unveils it at EICMA this year.  Give it the same tower, dash etc as the 390 Adventure with dual front tanks and it's a winner.

In reply to docwyte :

Have you seen the Kove 800X Rally yet? Skipping all of the political and supply chain considerations, I did some marketing riding for their social media on one of the early production bikes out in Utah. Got to beat the crap out of it jumping stuff and pounding whoops and whatnot, and I came away quite impressed. Rode back to back with a T7, 890R, 890R Rally, and my own 990 race bike. Had my 690 DIY RFR in the trailer too since I was coming back from a race, but didn't get it out for a specific comparo. The rally version is sub 400 lbs and feels notably lighter than a T7. The suspension out of the box is better than all of them for typical light ADV stuff, though as a racer I prefer the 890R and Rally suspension. Rider position is okay, but it has these goofy footpegs that are way forward to clear the low exhaust catalyst. I strongly suspect the aftermarket will fix this, especially because the peg pivots are in the right place, it's just the pegs themselves that have the platform far forward of the pivot. Good brakes, passable electronics package and ABS. Plastics are a bit brittle like the T7's. Power delivery feels like the original 790, which makes sense since it's the same engine. Allegedly they've fixed the cam issue for their version, they confirmed they know of the issue and use their own parts. It doesn't have the strongest bottom end torque in the world, but it's an engine that's happy to rev and sounds good doing it. Very low seat height as well, if that matters. I'm very tempted to pick one up to build out for racing, it weighs about 80 lbs less than my very stripped down 990 and felt more akin to my 690 rally with all 3 tanks full. I think it could be a good platform to build off of, and the things that annoyed me about it were all things that appeared to be fixable with bolt ons. 

Of course, overall quality is still kind of TBD, as is tariff pricing. I didn't spend any time on pavement with it, either, but nothing made me think it would be worse than a 690 or T7.

IMHO none of the "middleweights" are true off road bikes... they're just too heavy.   I was going to mention the Kove 800X, but gearheadE30 beat me to it... looks like the closest thing currently on the market.  I really like the new CF Ibex 450, but that may be smaller than you're looking for.

One of the coolest things I stumbled on while looking for the 'unicorn' is this:

CRF500 build - ADVRider

Here's a little candy for the Doc:

https://www.advpulse.com/adv-news/watch-rally-inspired-ktm-690-adventure-r-prototype-spied/

In reply to gearheadE30 and Kreb:

I didn't know about the Kove 800 Rally, spent some time yesterday watching videos and reading.  Not a whole lot of info on it, most of the videos are people riding it and saying it's great vs doing a real review.  Specs wise it does seem to hit the sweet spot, 400lbs with add ons like skid plate, pannier racks etc, with 95hp and good suspension.  There's a dealer here in Denver that I'm going to reach out to.  I am a little cautious about picking up such a new to market bike, with limited dealer network...

Kreb, that's exactly what I was talking about!

Following along. I love my DRZ on the trails and twisties, but it's absolute torture on the slab even for 30 minutes. DR650?

In reply to maschinenbau :

I already own the best thumper on the market, which is a dual counter balance shaft 690/701.  For me to replace it I want a twin cylinder...

How bad is the 701 on slab? Gotta be better than a DR right?

Meanwhile, Royal Enfield continues to take over the world.

I had to laugh at the "Moto Guzzi is reliable" post above, as every person I've known who had a newer MG suffered electrical issues with it. One V7 owner had one that shut off randomly, and the dealer never could find the problem. Nice bikes, but those kinds of issues are a real deterrent. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

I've never ridden a DR, but the 701 has the most power (by far) and best suspension with the lowest weight of any of the thumpers.  So I'd imagine it's better...

Talked with the Kove dealer here in town, didn't get a great feeling about Kove or them.  They're not really a motorcycle dealer, they're a classic car dealer that also sells Kove's.  They have no inventory and really don't know when any 800 Rally's are coming in, due to shipments being held up because of tariff's.  They're also not sure of pricing because of said tariffs.  None of that gives me a good feeling on a new to market bike that's using a historically problematic motor...

Same issue here and I just broke down and got the SMCR 690 and wore padded pants for longer rides. There are very few things in this category that are actually light weight. 

If the CRF300 Rally came in a 450 or 500cc motor that would do the trick. It has no grunt on the street. 

@maschinenbau - 701 is way better than a DR on the slab, especially the twin balancer version. I'm of the opinion that the twin balancer 690 engine is about as good as a single cylinder engine is ever going to be on the street, there's just no getting around the fact that you're moving a single large slug of aluminum around in there to get the job done. The DR isn't bad for what it is, but the design ethos between those two bikes is so dramatically different that I find them hard to compare.

In reply to docwyte :

Yeah, Kove dealer network (and parts distribution, though that's improving) is not a strong point. Most places are really just drop ship receivers, since the buy in for being able to do it is super low as they try to gain market share. Kind of a "why not" business addition for multi-line shops. It's possible to direct ship them to your door, but I haven't talked to Gary in a while to understand when the bikes are actually supposed to show up. Last time we spoke, all the new ones in the country were accounted for and everything else was kind of on hold until the tariffs settle out, basically the same thing you found. 

Yes, it will be interesting to know if they've actually fixed the cam issue. Otherwise I'm not aware of any really common issues with that engine. I need to figure out what happened to all the other pictures I had of this thing. 

And as always, shameless plug for the old LC8 as the best bikes ever. But it is pretty wild that my 990, drilled full of holes and as simple as anything, is 459 lbs ready to race, while the Kove is 50 lbs lighter and still has ABS and all the other modern amenities.

I've had some of the same findings as you and still have not found the unicorn bike. The dual balance shaft 701 you have may still be the closest to a unicorn currently on the market. I have an R1200GS I used to take everywhere (and routinely got stuck on trails it never belonged on) but picked up an inexpensive low mileage 690 about a month ago. For me a seat, windscreen, and different sprocket sets helped with pavement somewhat.

For now I am solving the one bike problem with...you guessed it...those two bikes. (Farther than 2 hours on pavement = Bavarian behemoth or throw the KTM in the bed of the truck.) Everyone seem to be raving about the 390 Adventure lately but I just don't get it. Still sort of watching and waiting for that true unicorn.

In reply to gearheadE30 :

Yeah, I'm scratching my head to see where Kove was able to cut 75lbs off what an 890R weighs.  Several people have weighed them and they're a legit under 400lb bike though.  I'd really love to check one out, but unlikely to buy one.  I'm pretty sure buying a bike from a Chinese company that's new to market, with little to no dealer/parts network, with no history of resale value/reliability along with the questions surrounding the 790/890 motor is a bad idea.  If it eats camshafts, who will fix it, who will even warranty it?

In reply to enginenerd :

That's my suspicion too, that I'm sorta stuck since I want something better off road than on road.  I'd just like something a bit better on road than my 701, without gaining too much weight.  If KTM finally releases the 690 adventure, maybe that would do it, depending on wind protection.  My bike came with the Brittannia Composites setup and I have a love/hate relationship with it.  I'm not super keen on how it looks and wind protection is less than ideal for me, however the lighting is phenomenal and it's already on the bike.  Paying $1600 for the Rade Garage setup seems dumb, I'm better off saving that money for my next bike.

I also don't understand everyone losing it over the 390 Adventure.  I like the way it looks, but it weighs more than the 690 and has half the power/torque and much worse suspension.  Apparently it's due to A2 restrictions in power and weight, it can't make more than a certain amount of HP and can't weigh under a certain amount.  That's why if KTM ever gets their head out of their butt and releases a 690 Adventure it's going to be epic in comparison to the 390.

I wish the Ibex 450 had more power and/or less weight. Sigh. I also have an old Adventure 640, and it's tough to find something spec wise that light with that much travel that's okay-ish at the highway.

In reply to fatallightning :

I've had 2 640 Adventures, between the massive gas tank and enormous suspension travel they really were unique.  They both vibrated an immense amount, the 690 was far less and the 701 far less than the 690...

I'm still trying to figure out Kove's 75 LB weight drop. How can they do that without making things more fragile? 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

That's the only thing I can think of too.  The engine weighs the same as the KTM, along with the transmission.  So where's another 75lbs coming from?

In reply to docwyte :

Tires filled with helium?