BoxxBodyCustoms said:I'm surprised that the Nokian G4's or G5's have not been added to this list as we've found these to be a very good all around tire for the van.
Not sure if joking...
BoxxBodyCustoms said:I'm surprised that the Nokian G4's or G5's have not been added to this list as we've found these to be a very good all around tire for the van.
Not sure if joking...
Not joking as I can say enough positive things about these tires.. Though not a track tire, these are very capable in a variety of situations.
I've always been unsure exactly where 20-30 minute sprint races in the desert heat would put me in regards to heat tolerance, so I've stayed in the "Endurance 200" section for the most part. Started out w2w running the NT-01, switched to the RR in the last year or two, and recently tried the Vitour P1 and Toyo R. Back to back with the RR's, the P1's were noticably grippier on the outlap, and I dropped a good bit of time the first qualifying lap on them. Back to back with the RR's, the R's are for sure grippier, but in my mind, not nearly as big a gap as the Vitours. Each back-to-back test was different weekends at different tracks, so maybe I just wasn't "with it" enough in the RR vs R comparison, but the P1s were great.
I'm sure I benefit with a light, low powered car - typical non-spec Miata with the typical aero. The P1s went 20 minutes of me going fairly hard and never dropped off a cliff like I was worried they would. Had to take a break for a few months so time will tell on longevity. I'll have to explore some of the other Super 200s at some point! Figured this anecdote might be helpful as there's not always a lot of sprint-ish racing discussion on some of these tires, it's a lot more auto-x/TT/endurance.
spedracer said:I've always been unsure exactly where 20-30 minute sprint races in the desert heat would put me in regards to heat tolerance, so I've stayed in the "Endurance 200" section for the most part.
Track Attack Pros stand up to 20-30 minute sprint races just fine for me. Not quite desert heat (highest I've used them is mid-90s), but they were fine.
I haven't run them in an enduro yet.
Love that this list is being constantly updated, but I think more focus should be put on tread-life. I have noticed that recent reviews somewhat gloss over the subject. Maybe weighing the wheel assembly before/after each test is a solution?
On Enduro and Budget tires where wear-rate is much more important, I think some wear ratings are flat-out wrong based my personal experience, anecdotes I have recieved from advanced-rungroup drivers, and online consensus. It makes me question the validity of the rest of the chart.
The KR20a Max original 200tw shocked me with how unbelievably durable the tire was. My very fast friend with a PP2 mustang has experienced longer tread life with the tire than RS4's. I've hear similar anecdotes about many Grassroots drift tires like Valino 08C and Accelera 351GD, but you'll almost never see these tires on the track. And "A" wear rating implies it's less durable than a 615k+, which is flat-out wrong.
The VR08GP wear rate should be closer to a V730/RT615k+, no idea where "AAAA" is coming from.
I worry about the addition of road-focused summer performance tires on this chart like ECS02, PS4S, Indy500, etc. The PS4S and ECS02 specifically have a tendency to chunk on heavier cars and rotation-happy drivers. Rating the PS4S "AAA" isn't accurate with road-course use.
This wear-rate portion of this chart is very influential online and its been cited to justify many tire purchases that aren't good choices, especially with the PS4S. I really want to be able to link people this chart without adding caveats like "ignore the wear portion."
Otherwise I'm a big fan and love the work that goes into these tire tests, which is why I recently subscribed. Hopefully a solution can be found!
Wear is very difficult to control for in these tests. There's so many variables, including vehicle weight, driving style, alignment, tire pressures, track conditions, weather (especially temperature), type of event, and course layout.
The test results are not intended to be the definitive reference for performance tire comparisons. They are a way to share objective data, controlling for as many variables as possible. It's up to us, the readers, to add this to the other sources of information that we choose when planning our tire purchases and usage.
We don't have to agree on the data.
That said, I need to emphasize that it's always good to get the kind of feedback you provided in your post. Anyone that has different opinions or experience with these tires helps us all when they add to the discussion.
Thanks for posting.
You alluded to it in your post. Some tires fall apart on a heavy car being over driven. But it's entirely possible they do just fine on a light low power car with a competent driver. Especially with dedicated autocross/track tires the wear rate can be very nonlinear so you'd basically need to run a set of every tire on the list down to the cords to get remotely accurate data (and still only for one specific use case). The guide is just that - a guide. If it was a calibrated scientific test worth flawless results the scores would be in units much more precise than letter grades. If you read more into it than is there that's kinda on you.
Floating Doc nailed it.
What we provide is a single data point, on a single car, with a single driver, on a single track. It's not the be-all, end-all definitive answer. Think of it as a qualifier to help narrow down the choices for your own testing program. Tire Rack and Tyre Reviews are two other great sources of testing info to round out your decision making.
Other than the few tires that we run down to the cords either in a long term test (which is rare) or simply tires we use ourselves, the wear rating is somewhat anecdotal. Certainly the least scientific of all of the data there.
As to some of your specific critiques, the Valino got AAAA because it displayed zero wear for us. Nothing, nada, squadoosh. It also didn't grip much so those two are likely related. :)
As to the ECS02 and PS4S, those come from real data on the One Lap of America, where they are the preferred choice of much of the field, So it's easy to see at the end of the week how they have worn on a variety of cars. Yes, they can be chunked when overdriven at full tread or when too small a tire is fitted for the weight of the car. Or any host of other reasons. And the Michelin is especially susceptible to edge cording when camber and/or pressure are too low.
But IMO, those two do merit the given rating when well driven on well setup cars.
That said, Tire Rack's position on both of those is track use should be occasional, not primary.
Andy Hollis said:Floating Doc nailed it.
What we provide is a single data point, on a single car, with a single driver, on a single track. It's not the be-all, end-all definitive answer. Think of it as a qualifier to help narrow down the choices for your own testing program. Tire Rack and Tyre Reviews are two other great sources of testing info to round out your decision making.
Other than the few tires that we run down to the cords either in a long term test (which is rare) or simply tires we use ourselves, the wear rating is somewhat anecdotal. Certainly the least scientific of all of the data there.
As to some of your specific critiques, the Valino got AAAA because it displayed zero wear for us. Nothing, nada, squadoosh. It also didn't grip much so those two are likely related. :)
As to the ECS02 and PS4S, those come from real data on the One Lap of America, where they are the preferred choice of much of the field, So it's easy to see at the end of the week how they have worn on a variety of cars. Yes, they can be chunked when overdriven at full tread or when too small a tire is fitted for the weight of the car. Or any host of other reasons. And the Michelin is especially susceptible to edge cording when camber and/or pressure are too low.
But IMO, those two do merit the given rating when well driven on well setup cars.
That said, Tire Rack's position on both of those is track use should be occasional, not primary.
Thanks for responding! Perfectly understandable that wear is difficult to measure, especially on Endurance tires that can last over 24 hours. Tyre reviews and Tire Rack don't do tests very often regarding wear, and when they do it's only for ~6 tires sold in the USA that everyone is already has data on.
I am going on the assumption that wear scales differently with weight/alignment/suspension design, but it can't cause a tire to wear faster/slower than a different tire (ignoring damage due to sidewall rollover). It would be nice to at least have more information of wear in the reviews as that's what me and other budget racer prefer to see over outright pace.
One Lap of America is a weird one. With so much long-distance street driving, I imagine a summer performance tire with high treadwear warranties and a softer sidewall to mitigate the effects of toe-induced wear should allow those tires to last longer than many Enduro-200 tires. However, I think a distinction should be made that those tires are not to be purchased for pure dedicated track use. In mainstream car culture, the PS4S is "best tire" and learning that it's not a purpose-built track tire is textbook for younger drivers. I personally corded a brand new set of ECS 02's in 3 track hours on my Miata, albeit with a poor alignment.
VR08GP lasting that long is surprising, I might pick up a set on discount to test 🤔
Otherwise, I love the work you guys do, especially the reviews on unorthodox tire choices like the Kendas. Can you do a review on the Champiro SX2 and SX2 RS next? They are the bread and butter of 86 Challenge, curious how they stack up for you between V730 and RS4 in terms of wear and pace.
CTFordza said:Thanks for responding! Perfectly understandable that wear is difficult to measure, especially on Endurance tires that can last over 24 hours. Tyre reviews and Tire Rack don't do tests very often regarding wear, and when they do it's only for ~6 tires sold in the USA that everyone is already has data on.
I personally corded a brand new set of ECS 02's in 3 track hours on my Miata, albeit with a poor alignment.
On the first point, if somebody can come up with a practical, consistent scientific way to determine long-term wear, I'm all ears. Heck, I'm still not done with the five sets of Super 200's I'm doing a long-term test on.
Endurance racing is one possibility, but it is not the same as doing a series of track days, with commensurate heat cycles. And the consumables costs of such a thing are immense -- unlike our budgets.
On your second point regarding the ECS02...uhhh, you seem to have diagnosed a key contributor (poor alignment). That said, did you heat cycle those tires before hammering them on track? Makes a big difference, especially on tires whose primary design purpose is not circuit use.
Bump for updates. Thanks, Colin.
Removed some older, NLA tires.
Readjusted a few ratings to reflect new testing, not all of which has been published yet.
Added commentary about the ratings system. In short, it's like the bond market, though that was not specifically targeted. It organically evolved into that for many of the same reasons, though.
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