FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

Still working on the push to start......but close now

I printed a box that everything mostly fits into (I had to file the sides on a few of the bosses)

I printed 2mm holes, then drilled 0.093" so #4 sheet metal screw that fit through the 3mm holes in the boards nice

Wired a little neater with a few colors so its easier to tell what's what

And it seems to work
Touch - on
Tough- off
Hold on at least 1/2 sec (+clutch) it's on and cracking until release
Starter locked out after release so touch or hold off, no crank

I still need to wire in the power relays so it actually controls the car but that is pretty straightforward so I expect to wrap this up tomorrow.

so it turns out straightforward and quick are not at all the same thing...behold the 80s Italian art

It is all wired and working though other than the clutch pedal switch and that wire is run and hanging at the switch ready for another day.  I kind of forgot I wanted a light on the dash so I need to run 1 more wire for that.

Step 1 was of course unpin the pre-pinned connects and throw out the wires, I am not a fan of splices where they are not absolutely needed.

I have no idea what I was thinking when I did this whenever I did it.....only think I can think is I didn't want the connection burried in the mess but I need that relay slot so burried it is

And it appears the subwoofer has aged out and there is now a hole in the foam ring supporting the cone....which has me pondering just removing the stereo in the name of I can't hear it over the engine anyway so why not save the weight....need to think about it.

I'm guessing we're all pretty tired of looking at wires but the silly push button is all wrapped up

In final testing I did find the the relay board was not really behaving as it should. A pretty quick tap would sometimes having it switch and switch back and then the light in the button stopped working.  I swapped to the spare relay board but the same thing and the same failure with the light.  Not sure why but the ICs they added for I don't really know what reason were the issue, so I jumped past them 

and removed 1 of them that just wasn't behaving at all and got all angry about the jumper.

and everything I tried works right  Getting the wires on the clutch and brake light switches was not so easy with the power steering in the way but I got them so the brake lights are working again (I didn't realize they weren't working when I was driving) and the clutch down for the starter works right.  

With that sorted I wired the ECU CAN buss to the power steering so now I need to add code to the ECU to read the brake and clutch switches and talk to the steering units....then I can get back to the engine.  The tig torch I needed to fix the intake ports has been sitting on the bench for a while

As has the piston.

so engine work soon......

The last couple days as I found time I worked on the ECU to PS unit CAN stuff and tonight the ECU was able to turn on the PS.  My laptop died before I had time to mess with the steering force but it works so I'm pretty happy.  I set it up so I can test different settings easily so I should be able to get the force stuff sorted without a lot more effort....should....

As an added bonus when I was looking at the CAN buss data I was pretty sure I was seeing the PS unit sending out the steering position so when I was writing CAN code I added some stuff to read that channel from the PS unit and convert it to something meaningful so now I also have steering wheel position displayed on a gauge and available to log which is a great bonus as I had no idea that info was there to be had.

I think this means I can put the dash back together and get on with fixing the engine.

I did figure out how to get the ECU to change steering force which is good.  On the minus side it felt like I could mostly ADD assist, not sure how much I can remove.  There is an output that looks like its steering force that I don't have scaled well....0 (not touching the wheel) is 0.5 and turning left I see a max of 0.6, turning right a min of 0.4 with what I believe is minimum PS assist.  At max assist the numbers are more like 0.54/0.46 and sitting parked this is basically 1 finger steering (imagine 1 finger parking a 308 :) ).  With the dongle values are like 0.58/0.42 ish.....so already 2/3-3/4 full soft I guess?  I'm going to clean up the code a bit and tie it to (vehicle speed X tuning variable) +min speed so I can easily  control max assist and how quickly it drops to min assist and call it the best I can do and see how it feels.

I think the 2nd 1/2 of the plan is crank up the caster.  Its about 4 deg now, I'm thinking target 7 or 8 and see how that feels.  This is next up I think.

Last I realized my steering position is actually steering change meaning 0 is where ever the steering wheel was pointing when the PS unit turned on.  Still useful but I'll need to remember to park with the wheel straight at the autocross to make the steering log data most helpful....or I can always still add an actually position sensor.

So I was thinking about the steering unit really wanting to over assist  and that maybe I could throw some high power resistors in  there but then came up with a better idea....If I intercept the strain gauge signal I can tell it the driver isn't working so it should chill.  I cleaned up some other stuff then got out the scope, pulled the connector and killed the GD PS unit.  Last time it died a wire got kicked off and I kind of assumed something shorted but it looks more like if its powered on when the connection is missing if bricks itself. MFer

Time to redo the PS setup

Any chance an S2000 rack would fit up front? They can operate without CAN input but it would need the little PS ECU that the S2000 uses.

weird, a couple posts from yesterday are missing (edit, double weird, now I see them again) but longer story short, steering is dead again

From the day I built the steering setup I've not loved it....
1)the steering unit, which is very clearly subject to fail, needs to be a bolt-in or nearly so. 
2) Love the quick steering (and honestly would like it even quicker), hate the quicker itself and how I installed it.  
3) the PS unit blocks my clutch foot.
4) its way over assisted

This all needs a re-think.......

Parker with too many Projects said:

Any chance an S2000 rack would fit up front? They can operate without CAN input but it would need the little PS ECU that the S2000 uses.

Maybe, its tight footwell to frame, I could make room though if I was really motivated.  Having the assist unit on the rack is for sure a neat way to install it.

I really want to be able to tune the steering feel properly.  Even the kits I see are only sort of kinda tunable. I'm talking to a buddy about many a universal controller that is easy to setup right for any car, but for sure will work for me :)

I'm also thinking seriously about cutting the pinion off the rack and installing a bigger one to get to the ratio I want...and if I'm doing that maybe I should tray to get the assist unit on the rack or maybe as you suggest I can find a rack I like somewhere.

What! No rubber grommet in the box for the wires. So disappointed in the execution. Other than that I'm still digging the work and build. Just curious as to how come there is a need to have  steering assist. The last idea of cracking open the rack-n-pinion to get the steering geared how you want seems to be the best solution. The work up to it has been fun to read though.

The stop start button has me going over it in my head. I've wired up many control stations and stop start controls. Those have always had two buttons. Now I've been trying to figure out how to do it with just one and it's not going well. Thought I had it with some latching relays but still not sure. All my electrical and electronics are boxed up while I'm figuring out my garage and storage. So most of what I've been doing is in my head or scribbled on pieces of paper. 

Just finished chatting with a very helpful woman in China and see is going to make me a Power steering unit from a few different products they have....kind of a compact ATV design but with automotive size connections and power.  Then she is going to custom program the controller so I can can tell it exactly what output I want at any given moment.  The (broken) fiesta unit I have is on a 50A fuse and this is a 65A max so it should be at least what the old unit had as a max assist.  I'll order that tomorrow

Then one of my way better with electronics than me buddies will make a little box that reads vehicle speed and lets me program what steering assist I want. He was on about a bluetooth phone app so its sounds nice but the end result will be an assist vs speed curve (not line, curve)  that is whatever I want it to be.  Technically I can probably just make my ECU control the steering but the PS unit I just spec'd plas a nice little controller sure feels like a product that is better and WAY cheaper than anything currently on the market so I'm buying a few, ping me if you want one before they hit  ebay.  I'm thinking I can do  $299

We might do something with a programmable controller for OEM PS units for like $199....ping me if that is something you want and I'll dig into it.

Then, the plan is I'm NOT got to cut or weld it, I'm just going to make adapters and bolt it in. I know, you're all disappointed, but even I can learn from my mistakes 

The next thing to sort out is the ratio bit....keep what I have with the quickener or do a custom rack?????

In reply to brad131a4 (Forum Supporter) :

Grommet on the plastic box?  I figured plastic was the key word ...but sure, a grommet would probably be nicer.

I posted the design, its the button plus 8 relays and 2 switches (clutch and security),  but it would work without the 1 relay and the security switch if you don't care about accessory power as an option or replace the switch with another latching relay I guess.  1 latching relay, 2 timer relays (0.1, 0.5 sec), 2 low power relays, 3 high power relays.

It seems to work really well.  I was doing ECU work with a bunch of power on/off and its much nicer than the key I thought.

Today I realized the reason the steering boots didn't fit right is because  for whatever reason, my car has a mondial rack in it.  That makes measuring it  see a bit pointless I think.  The mondial manual has a nice drawing with the critical info, the 308 manual has a poor quality drawing without the need dimensions which is not helpful

I'm kind of eying having Titan make me a rack

Titan Steering Rack

Stock is 3.2 revs so 38mm/rev.  The superperfomance 2.5 about 62mm/rev, with my 2:1 gearing I was at 1.7  revs and about 73mm/rev and I really liked that titan can do 72. 79. 86 and an 86mm/rev which would be 1.5 revs lock to lock which seems amazing.  But, the pinion is straight, not a 4.5deg angle so I would need to scooch it a little, which I think would be fine.  I need to hunt down a 308 rack to measure I guess.

Cool,

I'll look back and check it out. I was thinking of doing this same thing on my Vanagon. Most likely when I get a chance to either do a WRX motor or LS1 swap. Depends on if I like this 02 S6 Avant I just picked up. Have a manual swap coming for it at the end of August. Auto is going out and would cost the same as the swap.

brad131a4 (Forum Supporter) said:

Just curious as to how come there is a need to have  steering assist. The last idea of cracking open the rack-n-pinion to get the steering geared how you want seems to be the best solution. 

 

I'd guess it's because 308s were chunky by the standards of the 80s sports cars, and heavy even by modern standards when you remember a 308's wheelbase is only two inches more than an NA Miata.

 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a65253162/1982-delorean-chevrolet-corvette-datsun-280-zx-turbo-ferrari-308gtsi-porsche-911sc-archive-comparison-test/ 

I can't imagine the V12 swap made it any lighter. 

In reply to DaewooOfDeath :

For sure that is part of it!   I think the 3800 testarossa got the same steering setup as the 308...same ratio, steering wheel size. and it wasn't until the 355 that power steering was a think?. 

Expectations have just changed over the years along with wider stickier tires.  A 308 is a nightmare to drive at an AX, my 1st go I made the mistake of wearing a watch and came out with bruises on both arms from working the steering wheel....lock to lock at lowish speed was a lot of work.  Its nice at 40 or 60mph, but not at 15mph, its the only car I've ever driven where I really had to think about steering and getting my hands in the right place on the wheel coming into a turn and for me that just detracts from the fun, steering is just a fight.

What I have now, when its working, is over assisted but for me its still a HUGE improvement.  I was a bit nervous about going to the 1.7 turn lock to lock ratio but I just love that.  Its probable twitchy out on a real track at speed but at road speeds its pretty nice.  The fixed assist level I had was about right at like 10-20mph, a little low below 10, much to high avove about 30. At least I'm blaming the assist. It could also be the geometry changes I made need refinement, I'm pretty sure it wants more caster, when I dropped the lower ball joint mount I reduce the king pin angle and and changed wheel size and offset I messed with scrub which i guess will mess with how it reacts to caster?

Anyway, the new PS unit should be fully tunable assuming they build me what I'm asking for.   Today I guess I'm going to have a look at moving the upper a-arm backwards, there are spacers I can change to grab a few mms.  Then what to do with the steering rack......I can buy a bolt-in 2.5 turn rack/pinion set but then need a correct 308 housing to put them in.  I do really like the 1.7 ratio I have now though....

I have a car with manual steering that fast (~1.3ish lock to lock), and a 15" steering wheel.  Front weight is about 1200lb.  I cannot imagine trying to autocross it with sticky tires.  Over a certain cornering force, I literally cannot turn the steering wheel even by heaving my shoulders into it, and I've got pretty good upper body strength.  Power steering is a must.

Fast steering is nice because you never have to take your hands off the steering wheel.  And without power assist, that's good because you need both arms 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I have a car with manual steering that fast (~1.3ish lock to lock), and a 15" steering wheel.  Front weight is about 1200lb.  I cannot imagine trying to autocross it with sticky tires.  Over a certain cornering force, I literally cannot turn the steering wheel even by heaving my shoulders into it, and I've got pretty good upper body strength.  Power steering is a must.

 

Fast steering is nice because you never have to take your hands off the steering wheel.  And without power assist, that's good because you need both arms 

How did you get the 1.3 turns?  Short steering arms or is is a racing rack?  Or?????

So you know...1228 is what I have on the front axle so about exactly what you have and even at 1.7 turns its quite a handful in the driveway when the PS is dead but a joy in motion in/out of tight corners.  I would hate to give up the fast ratio.

Also, I ordered this $20 steering position sensor thinking now is the time

mke said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

I have a car with manual steering that fast (~1.3ish lock to lock), and a 15" steering wheel.  Front weight is about 1200lb.  I cannot imagine trying to autocross it with sticky tires.  Over a certain cornering force, I literally cannot turn the steering wheel even by heaving my shoulders into it, and I've got pretty good upper body strength.  Power steering is a must.

 

Fast steering is nice because you never have to take your hands off the steering wheel.  And without power assist, that's good because you need both arms 

How did you get the 1.3 turns?  Short steering arms or is is a racing rack?  Or?????

So you know...1228 is what I have on the front axle so about exactly what you have and even at 1.7 turns its quite a handful in the driveway when the PS is dead but a joy in motion in/out of tight corners.  I would hate to give up the fast ratio.

It's the faster of the two power steering racks that Mazda put in RX-7s in 1988, and a 2:1 steering quickener spliced into the column.  The rack is supposed to be 3 turns lock to lock, but somehow it goes quite a bit less than .75 turns from straight ahead.

Repowering the rack isn't an option because it hemhorraged fluid badly in the donor car, so I just cut the ram lines and looped them.

In the car's native environment (bumpy dirt), the steering is fairly light because the car corners tail-out and tends to carry the inside front off the ground.  But there was one event that was held on hard packed clay with rubber laid down from competition, and I found it impossible to steer in the grippier, longer corners.  According to my logs this was about .8g.  So if it were an autocross and I had some decent tires intended for the purpose, there'd be no way I could keep up.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

It's the faster of the two power steering racks that Mazda put in RX-7s in 1988, and a 2:1 steering quickener spliced into the column.  The rack is supposed to be 3 turns lock to lock, but somehow it goes quite a bit less than .75 turns from straight ahead.

Repowering the rack isn't an option because it hemhorraged fluid badly in the donor car, so I just cut the ram lines and looped them.

 

In the car's native environment (bumpy dirt), the steering is fairly light because the car corners tail-out and tends to carry the inside front off the ground.  But there was one event that was held on hard packed clay with rubber laid down from competition, and I found it impossible to steer in the grippier, longer corners.  According to my logs this was about .8g.  So if it were an autocross and I had some decent tires intended for the purpose, there'd be no way I could keep up.

I have an FC with the 3 port 15.4:1 rack and I drove it depowered for awhile. Even without a quickener, I found it difficult enough to steer through fast tight corners that I re-powered it. Not that it was impossible, but it became a bit of a safety hazard with the wheel constantly trying to rip itself from my hands. 

I can't imagine making that rack quicker without assist.

In reply to WondrousBread :

Oh jeez, I drove it depowered for something like 70k miles.  Maybe 1st gens just weigh that much less, or the bigger steering wheel helps?  The steering was lighter than the power assisted steering in my Volvo.

Before that, I drove a depowered steering box (actually a little faster ratio than the 3 port FC) for a very long time.

I don't know, it nice to be able to take a hand off the wheel to shift and not worry about crashing 

The titan steering rack price list I found and liked was from 2005, the $600 rack is now $2k....maybe, that is nearly a full year of car budget.....but they look amazing and they can do a 1.75, 1.58 or 1.45 turn setups but still needs adapter bits made.

At kind of the other end of the spendy spectrum is a $165 14" empi rack that is 1.5 turns  and exactly the right travel but I would need to extend the 1 side....so lets call it $250 and it is a bit...well...sad.  

There is an oval track unit from sweet mfg for about $600 that is much nicer that I could do the same extend the end trick on I think and have 1.66 or 1.43 turn options

Or buy a 2.5 turn bolt-in rack and just pretend I'm happy?  Definitely better than 3.2 turns. The best I can tell the mondial rack in my car is the same as the 308 rack but has 5mm more stroke.

I put a torque wrench on my steering tonight and sitting in the garage its right about 30Nm to turn it.  This is the 1.7 turns setup with a dead PS unit probably adding some resistance.  The Chinese PS units are NOT ordered as there are still a few questions on the specs I'm trying to sort out but 30-40Nm is what I think the max output is so it would probably be fine with a fast rack.  The way its setup now with a slow rack and a quicken the Ps unit needs about 15Nm so it would be plenty strong enough...the issue is I really fought the quickener into that spot but maybe with the new PS unit it will fit better?  

With the RX-7 I can turn the steering when stopped with not too much drama, when I wish for power assist is when there are G forces working against the steering trail (the distance between the steering axis and the contact patch).

This is a lot of why back in the day a lot of cars had negative caster, too.